It’s an incredibly sensitive topic for both ethnic Germans and descendants of Gastarbeiter (as well as for people who are both, obviously), and I’m an autistic foreigner, so I’m trying to be delicate, but I might be missing the mark.
It seems to me that it created a group of people treated as second-class who weren’t given the tools to do well in the German education system, and systemic discrimination solidified that. I hear complaints from (some, racist) Germans that immigrants haven’t integrated, but how could they (obviously there are individuals who integrate under those circumstances, but that’s not going to work with a wave of immigrants from the same country- they’ll just form cultural enclaves, because they won’t get community support otherwise)?
For more recent immigrants, like my coworker from Syria, who’s been in Germany for nine years as a refugee, the choice is between staying a refugee (the German government could at any time say that Syria is safe again and send him back with a few days’ notice) and applying for residency outside of his claim for asylum, thereby giving up his right to asylum (so if they say no, he’d also have to go back with a few days’ notice). His wife and their daughter are in the same position. How on earth can anyone expect him not to teach his daughter Arabic? She might at any point have to move to Syria.
I guess it’s the same in England with the benefit that if you’re born here, you get a UK passport and all the rights that come with it. I’d argue that Germany played both sides of the “Europe means Europe” passport game to both include and exclude people from being naturalized citizens (i.e. yes you can live here, yes you can kinda vote here, no you’re not german)
Plus the racism obviously, but every country has a large racist overbelly. England is easier in the sense that english media is everywhere, already diverse, and you can communicate in whatever pidgin english you know. German is much much harder, and I do blame the language being the main barrier to easier integration.
Yeah, having birthright citizenship makes a huge difference, imo. I’m from the US, which is obviously not currently immigrant friendly, but at least had the veneer of such when I was growing up (at least from my childhood perspective), and it’s hard to tell whether birthright citizenship or the idea of an “immigrant nation” played a bigger role in the difference between the two.
Germany and England do have specific and individual cultures that are worth protecting, but cultural exchange doesn’t inherently destroy extant cultures and if you follow the roots of any tradition far back enough, you’ll find influences from outside cultures.
I don’t know exactly how to describe it, but I got a feeling similar to what I imagine compersion to feel like (I’m not poly) when I saw a group of women wearing full hijabs integrated into their Karneval costumes bringing their costumed kids to a Faschingsparade. It was such a clear image of cultural blending that I got a little sappy about it.
Oh wow, I would have loved to see that! Plus the Karneval music scene could use some tuning away from the usual schlager stuff, foreign influence would be very welcome there
It’s an incredibly sensitive topic for both ethnic Germans and descendants of Gastarbeiter (as well as for people who are both, obviously), and I’m an autistic foreigner, so I’m trying to be delicate, but I might be missing the mark.
It seems to me that it created a group of people treated as second-class who weren’t given the tools to do well in the German education system, and systemic discrimination solidified that. I hear complaints from (some, racist) Germans that immigrants haven’t integrated, but how could they (obviously there are individuals who integrate under those circumstances, but that’s not going to work with a wave of immigrants from the same country- they’ll just form cultural enclaves, because they won’t get community support otherwise)?
For more recent immigrants, like my coworker from Syria, who’s been in Germany for nine years as a refugee, the choice is between staying a refugee (the German government could at any time say that Syria is safe again and send him back with a few days’ notice) and applying for residency outside of his claim for asylum, thereby giving up his right to asylum (so if they say no, he’d also have to go back with a few days’ notice). His wife and their daughter are in the same position. How on earth can anyone expect him not to teach his daughter Arabic? She might at any point have to move to Syria.
I guess it’s the same in England with the benefit that if you’re born here, you get a UK passport and all the rights that come with it. I’d argue that Germany played both sides of the “Europe means Europe” passport game to both include and exclude people from being naturalized citizens (i.e. yes you can live here, yes you can kinda vote here, no you’re not german)
Plus the racism obviously, but every country has a large racist overbelly. England is easier in the sense that english media is everywhere, already diverse, and you can communicate in whatever pidgin english you know. German is much much harder, and I do blame the language being the main barrier to easier integration.
Yeah, having birthright citizenship makes a huge difference, imo. I’m from the US, which is obviously not currently immigrant friendly, but at least had the veneer of such when I was growing up (at least from my childhood perspective), and it’s hard to tell whether birthright citizenship or the idea of an “immigrant nation” played a bigger role in the difference between the two.
Germany and England do have specific and individual cultures that are worth protecting, but cultural exchange doesn’t inherently destroy extant cultures and if you follow the roots of any tradition far back enough, you’ll find influences from outside cultures.
I don’t know exactly how to describe it, but I got a feeling similar to what I imagine compersion to feel like (I’m not poly) when I saw a group of women wearing full hijabs integrated into their Karneval costumes bringing their costumed kids to a Faschingsparade. It was such a clear image of cultural blending that I got a little sappy about it.
Compersion. I’d never heard that term, very interesting. I know it’s not the etymology, but to me it sounds like compassionate cohesion which is cool.
Oh wow, I would have loved to see that! Plus the Karneval music scene could use some tuning away from the usual schlager stuff, foreign influence would be very welcome there
Yes about the Schlager, lol