I mean, I agree and all. But you really didn’t know that before 2016? That there’s always the “striving to be” caveat on the exceptionalism comments? Slavery… racism… Religious persecution… Misogyny, rape and violence… Dictators over communists…
I’ve been angry about this shit for decades and never kidded myself that we were somehow suddenly a different country.
If you’ve ever been a patriot who loved you nation AND your neighbors (without prejudice), you had to know the warts were there.
And even the GOP thing… The country has elected corporate-leaning bootstrap yourself anti-welfare officials half it’s history. And even the progressives at each step, bore bigotry for the groups that hadn’t upwardly moved to “as good as straight, white, and male”
I had a really good guy, wealthy family of my ex, while drunkenly sharing a doob, tell me, “no, you can come to bohemian grove! Jews are practically white now! We’ve had one for years!” (I’m 95% sure it was Harvey Weinstein fwiw)
The people demanding their Latino neighbors get deported (seriously, who the fuck is going to take their jobs at that pay… These people are so fucked when they have to pay on the books at corporate rates) think they’re progressive bc they’re down with blacks and gays now (as long as you only kiss a white woman or fellow dude behind closed doors)
This Is America
Some people are just opening their eyes. I found this election to be mundane in retrospect. Many more, average, even kind most of the time, people I know (and love) voted red. It almost made it easy to stomach. Maybe it’s not a Nazi overthrow but a referendum by the 99% that they’re tired and broke and pissed off and it they don’t have a Bernie or something, this is just what they’re going to do…
Michael Moore should be required reading before commenting on what Americans are like.
Someone once said “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” With Michael Moore, it’s the opposite. I agree with what he has to say, but I sure wish he’d shut the fuck up. Obnoxious people like Michael Moore just push people to Trump.
The left needs to be less accusatory and focus more on actually influencing people. Guys like Michael Moore make a living preaching to the choir which accomplishes nothing.
The left needs to be a little less obsessed with proving how smart they are in their own little circle jerks and learn how to communicate with people outside of their circles. Telling people that don’t really give a shit about politics that they’re racist assholes because they voted for the guy that was on Joe Rogan isn’t going to win them over. Think about why people would rather listen to Joe Rogan than Michael Moore. It’s because Michael Moore is smug and obnoxious. Which is a trait that a lot of people on the left exhibit.
I find Michael Moore neither smug nor obnoxious. You and others interpret Michael Moore’s messages as being smug and/or obnoxious, but there are a lot of other people who listen to his messages without animosity. This pattern is also true for Joe Rogan. I am certain that there are people who interpret his message as being smug or obnoxious.
The reality is the nature of conversation is complicated: the result relies on how information is produced by the speaker AND how it is interpreted by the listener. So the root of the problem is twofold. It’s not just that people are having a hard time speaking to those outside their circle. It is also that people are having a hard time listening to those outside their circle. The blame is not on the left or the right, it’s on both. Both exist in their own circle jerk, and neither groups are able to talk and listen to each other.
I think the fact that we all aligned once this CEO died reveals why this division is important those in power (Top 1%, billionaires, and multi-millionaires). If we did all team up, these people in power would be in trouble. Instead, we are being divided into two sides that cannot even communicate with each other. And because of that, we are being conquered by these oligarchs and we are too busy fighting each other to know what’s going on.
Yes, people that already agree with Michael Moore like him. But to anyone that doesn’t already agree with him, he’s smug and obnoxious. I agree with most of what he says, but find him grating, he’s not going to change anyone’s mind about anything.
Both exist in their own circle jerk, and neither groups are able to talk and listen to each other.
The nature of social media. People don’t talk to each other on social media. They talk at each other. People aren’t trying to change people’s minds about anything, they’re writing things to prove to people that are already on “their side” how loyal they are to a cause by insulting those who aren’t. People write their opinions under their own names and what they wrote in the past is always there because nothing on the internet can ever really be deleted. This calcifies people’s opinions. Add followers to the mix then you have your own personal audience that’s there because they like what you’ve said in the past. So there’s a strong disincentive to never change, and a strong incentive to attack those not within the group.
It takes effort to get out of this rut and actually talk to people. Social media has deluded us into thinking that it can result in a positive change, but it’s only endless arguments that accomplish nothing because nobody in the social media rut will ever change. And because people feel like they’re making positive change for dunking on the whateverists that are incompatible with mywhateverism, less happens through more productive channels of activism.
Kinda sad that it takes a murder to break people out of their respective bubbles. And I’m not optimistic about people not returning to their respective bubbles as soon as the next thing to be angry at each other over is offered up.
You can’t be serious. This was the guy who dedicated his life showing the inequality and economic devastation that globalization had on the working class, as well as mass shootings.
Sounds like you’re hearing his hype voters to activate before elections tone, not his pro all Americans content. I agree with your final thoughts (hence my above comment about seeing our neighbors as humans again) but I think you’re pinning it on the wrong dude. He’s a fat guy from Michigan in a shitty hat. You’re thinking of the postdoc white suburbanites on Twitter that use words nobody ever uses IRL only alienating people that agree with them.
I mean, I agree and all. But you really didn’t know that before 2016? That there’s always the “striving to be” caveat on the exceptionalism comments? Slavery… racism… Religious persecution… Misogyny, rape and violence… Dictators over communists… I’ve been angry about this shit for decades and never kidded myself that we were somehow suddenly a different country. If you’ve ever been a patriot who loved you nation AND your neighbors (without prejudice), you had to know the warts were there. And even the GOP thing… The country has elected corporate-leaning bootstrap yourself anti-welfare officials half it’s history. And even the progressives at each step, bore bigotry for the groups that hadn’t upwardly moved to “as good as straight, white, and male” I had a really good guy, wealthy family of my ex, while drunkenly sharing a doob, tell me, “no, you can come to bohemian grove! Jews are practically white now! We’ve had one for years!” (I’m 95% sure it was Harvey Weinstein fwiw) The people demanding their Latino neighbors get deported (seriously, who the fuck is going to take their jobs at that pay… These people are so fucked when they have to pay on the books at corporate rates) think they’re progressive bc they’re down with blacks and gays now (as long as you only kiss a white woman or fellow dude behind closed doors) This Is America Some people are just opening their eyes. I found this election to be mundane in retrospect. Many more, average, even kind most of the time, people I know (and love) voted red. It almost made it easy to stomach. Maybe it’s not a Nazi overthrow but a referendum by the 99% that they’re tired and broke and pissed off and it they don’t have a Bernie or something, this is just what they’re going to do… Michael Moore should be required reading before commenting on what Americans are like.
Someone once said “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” With Michael Moore, it’s the opposite. I agree with what he has to say, but I sure wish he’d shut the fuck up. Obnoxious people like Michael Moore just push people to Trump.
The left needs to be less accusatory and focus more on actually influencing people. Guys like Michael Moore make a living preaching to the choir which accomplishes nothing.
The left needs to be a little less obsessed with proving how smart they are in their own little circle jerks and learn how to communicate with people outside of their circles. Telling people that don’t really give a shit about politics that they’re racist assholes because they voted for the guy that was on Joe Rogan isn’t going to win them over. Think about why people would rather listen to Joe Rogan than Michael Moore. It’s because Michael Moore is smug and obnoxious. Which is a trait that a lot of people on the left exhibit.
I find Michael Moore neither smug nor obnoxious. You and others interpret Michael Moore’s messages as being smug and/or obnoxious, but there are a lot of other people who listen to his messages without animosity. This pattern is also true for Joe Rogan. I am certain that there are people who interpret his message as being smug or obnoxious.
The reality is the nature of conversation is complicated: the result relies on how information is produced by the speaker AND how it is interpreted by the listener. So the root of the problem is twofold. It’s not just that people are having a hard time speaking to those outside their circle. It is also that people are having a hard time listening to those outside their circle. The blame is not on the left or the right, it’s on both. Both exist in their own circle jerk, and neither groups are able to talk and listen to each other.
I think the fact that we all aligned once this CEO died reveals why this division is important those in power (Top 1%, billionaires, and multi-millionaires). If we did all team up, these people in power would be in trouble. Instead, we are being divided into two sides that cannot even communicate with each other. And because of that, we are being conquered by these oligarchs and we are too busy fighting each other to know what’s going on.
Yes, people that already agree with Michael Moore like him. But to anyone that doesn’t already agree with him, he’s smug and obnoxious. I agree with most of what he says, but find him grating, he’s not going to change anyone’s mind about anything.
The nature of social media. People don’t talk to each other on social media. They talk at each other. People aren’t trying to change people’s minds about anything, they’re writing things to prove to people that are already on “their side” how loyal they are to a cause by insulting those who aren’t. People write their opinions under their own names and what they wrote in the past is always there because nothing on the internet can ever really be deleted. This calcifies people’s opinions. Add followers to the mix then you have your own personal audience that’s there because they like what you’ve said in the past. So there’s a strong disincentive to never change, and a strong incentive to attack those not within the group.
It takes effort to get out of this rut and actually talk to people. Social media has deluded us into thinking that it can result in a positive change, but it’s only endless arguments that accomplish nothing because nobody in the social media rut will ever change. And because people feel like they’re making positive change for dunking on the whateverists that are incompatible with mywhateverism, less happens through more productive channels of activism.
Kinda sad that it takes a murder to break people out of their respective bubbles. And I’m not optimistic about people not returning to their respective bubbles as soon as the next thing to be angry at each other over is offered up.
Well put in every regard.
Agreed. Many people, particularly Americans, are terrible listeners. Dunnning-Kreuged effect in play.
You can’t be serious. This was the guy who dedicated his life showing the inequality and economic devastation that globalization had on the working class, as well as mass shootings.
Sounds like you’re hearing his hype voters to activate before elections tone, not his pro all Americans content. I agree with your final thoughts (hence my above comment about seeing our neighbors as humans again) but I think you’re pinning it on the wrong dude. He’s a fat guy from Michigan in a shitty hat. You’re thinking of the postdoc white suburbanites on Twitter that use words nobody ever uses IRL only alienating people that agree with them.