I mean… I kinda get it, but nowadays it’s starting to get absurd.
(EDIT: This was supposed to be a “blow air out my nose and get on with my life” meme…)
I literally just watched a video essay about The Thing and this made me laugh.
Inside me are two wolves
One thinks Chinese tech is cool and innovative
The other hates fascist dictatorships
*both of the wolves are gay
You may or may not think China is “authoritarian” but how on earth are they fascist?
Tradition is big. E.g TCM crap over science
You cannot disagree with the state
Stokes fear and hatred of outsiders
Blames social frustrations on those outsiders
Appeals to restore past glory
Han ethnic supremacy
You could go through all of Eco’s points and apply them to China pretty fittingly.
Appeals to restore past glory
Genuinely, what on earth are you talking about? China’s past is full of poverty, humiliation, and exploitation, literally, “The century of humiliation!” The only people who “appeal to restore past glory” are the CIA-funded Shen Yun performances romanticizing “China before communism.” The Chinese people I talk to will specifically point to the Qing as a clear demonstration of the danger of clinging to tradition and the necessity of adapting and looking forward.
China literally had a cultural revolution seeking to abolish tradition. I expect you would call that fascist just as you call if fascist whenever some people still follow tradition, after all:
“During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology… What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.”
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
Far right? Hm, maybe not. Otherwise: Check, check, quasi-check, check, check, check, …
China has become a psudo Capitalist country in its quest for world domination.
Capitalism goes hand in hand with right wing extremism
I think China would have to do a lot more for the avg person before they could be considered socialist or communist again
Socialism isn’t when the government does stuff for the people, it’s when the people take matters into their own hands and do stuff for the good of each other. Even if a state behaves in the most benevolent way possible, it is not socialist unless the workers have collective ownership of the means of production.
By that definition there are no socialist countries.
When people talk about socialism in the real world it doesn’t mean owning the means of production
Only because the very concepts of ownership and the collective-individual dichotomy are necessarily vague and subjective. China considers themselves socialist because they equivocate the people with the state. If the people are collectively represented by the state and the state owns (some of) the means of production, then at least transitively the people own (some of) the means of production.
As an anarchist I don’t believe the state adequately represents the interests of the people, nor do I think it could even if it were radically democratic and egalitarian, though I would still certainly prefer that to the existing status quo. Somewhere a line must be drawn arbitrarily and I prefer to draw it on the other side of authoritarian state control.
Let’s be honest: the only reason for this is the oppressive chinese government, dead stop
I think part of it is being extra defensive considering our tankie neighbors… I don’t have any issues with the people of China, the culture of China, etc, etc.
I’ve always thought that everyone was on the same page about China’s oppressive government, but now it feels like it needs to be said, as there are people actively arguing in its favor.
You cannot be on the side of the people of China, and claim China has an oppressive government.
Um, yes you obviously can
…given China is an open socialist democracy, no, no you can’t.
Anyone can run for office, anyone can get power.
You understand that even a democratic government can be oppressive, right? You can absolutely dislike a government without disliking the people it represents.
Sure, the kakistocracy of the US can be called an oppressive democracy since only the rich vote on legislation, but that’s different from the peoples parliament which allows anyone to join and have power.
So, by your logic, you hate the people of the United States, right?
Don’t forget things like China blatantly stealing IP fro the west.
And rich Chinese buying up land in western countries.
And rich Chinese students going to universities in the west and then buying/cheating their way through their degree.
And (this might come under your point) destroying domestic industries of western countries by flooding the market with cheap inferior products.
Agreed, though a lot of these things are also just a result of it’s government
china is an entire economy based on intellectual property thievery and human slavery. the ccp are evil, and dangerous to all of humanity. go try your bullshit someplace else.
I’m sorry, “entire economy” based on “human slavery”? That’s absurd. Yes the CCP abuses the fuck out of the Uighurs and it’s awful, but this is insane hyperbole.
The US also uses slavery, very literally, very out in the open and doesn’t hide it to the point that the details are fuzzy and unclear.
It does it both very directly via prison inmates being used for labour for peanuts against their will by corporations in agreement with corpos that run their prisons and in the less direct way where the fed and state governments don’t do shit about/give subsidies to farmers that hoover up disenfranchised illegals to stack em and pack em in sheds so they can work their fields for fuck all.
Both of those are such mainstream facts there’s even a John Oliver episode about both topics from years ago.
Would you say the “entire economy” of the US is based on “human slavery”?
I doubt it.
Not to mention you bring that up alongside “intellectual property thievery”, are those two really of even similar magnitude? Surely “human slavery” is a bit more serious than downloading a picture of mickey mouse off Google images, nah?
you really really are that unaware of the pay, living and working conditions of the average chinese factory worker. jfc.
protip: check out all the downvotes. lol. the ccp are rife on lemmy now. be aware, they are among us, attempting to subvert and promote their bullshit propganda. the chinese ccp can fuck off into the sun.
The CCP isn’t ripe, you’re just spreading western propaganda and severely misinforned.
these are the reasons I think this happens:
- their numerous accusations of spyware
- their government being fucked up (especially their censorship)
- being known for making a lot of mass-produced garbage for cheap
- the working conditions in those factories being horrible
- regular racism (which may be caused by the above)
edit: reworked comment into bulleted list instead of run-on sentence
- their government being fucked up (especially their censorship)
I would love to discuss this with anyone that’s willing. If their government is as awful and fucked up as everyone says why does the average Chinese citizen generally have a better life than the average American in their respective societal totem pole (in cities specifically) ?
They have far more purchasing power for food, rent. Their healthcare is affordable. While censorship is a thing towards certain topics, there certainly isn’t a lack of discussion. They have far better public transit systems, far more parks, and public utilities, absolute ownership (no property tax).
To me it seems we’re continuously demonizing the lives of those we don’t understand who are actually far better off than most of us in the states.
I would love to discuss this with anyone that’s willing. If their government is as awful and fucked up as everyone says why does the average Chinese citizen generally have a better life than the average American in their respective societal totem pole (in cities specifically) ?
Because the social contract of 21st century authoritarian societies is “We give you prosperity, you do politics through gov-approved channels.” Punishment for dissent depends on how insecure the state feels right now.
On the plus side, the government cares about your prosperity. As long as it lasts, elites can divide power among themselves however they like.
On the minus – society doesn’t control its government (power transition happens by committee, not elections) and it can’t force any kind of change when elites are against it. Modern states have so much repression power, they can shut down any activism when they don’t mind bloodstains.
And when prosperity ends, the new contract will be “Do as we say and nobody gets tortured”.
Quite frankly, I think you’re failing to see that a major part of American culture, a literal founding principle, is “live free or die”. Americans are obviously not going to take that censorship as just a small downside.
Quality of life is less important than freedom.
absolute ownership (no property tax).
This is also just a lie. They don’t own land.
Pointing out Americans system of live free or dying to avert censorship while also repeating US propaganda about China is hilariously ironic
What happens to the land/house you own if you don’t pay property tax in the US? Chinas 70 year lease is effectively a more solidified ownership than the US.
The entire country tried to revolt in 1989 and millions of citizens were killed by their own military. People who speak out lose access to most services and can’t even sign up for online platforms.
Right now China is experiencing a massive homelessness crisis because their assigned homes aren’t in the places they live and work.
Do people still use Jim Crowe laws to talk about the daily life of US citizens? These are 40-60 year old discussion that do not adequately describe what life is like to the average citizen today.
Yeah they have their own homeless issues, but imo having a homeless population who has a job and chooses not to return home vs one that has nothing is two very different situations and almost incomparable problems.
People do still talk about Jim Crowe laws, yes, and also the same singular party rules China today and they still regularly suppress protests with military especially in regions they more recently expressed complete authority over such as Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Tibet.
Why does every discussion around China devolve into this as if the US doesn’t also do this?
Instead let’s discuss how average Chinese citizen in Shanghai is doing compared to the average citizen in San Francisco and have a real discussion between the two countries and how their government impacts their life.
Why does every discussion about China also have to be about their many many enemies all over the world as a direct result of their opaque cruelty?
Why can’t we just discuss what is wrong with China?
Because this exact statement can also be applied to the US? Which to be frank I’m all for talking about, the US probably has the most enemies in the world. But regardless this discussion is intended to be about the government impacts on their citizens.
more recently expressed complete authority over such as Taiwan
What complete authority does the PRC have over Taiwan? Their position now is the same as its been for seventy years - they consider it part of their country but exercise no actual control over it.
I lived and worked outside Shanghai for a bit, but it was a while ago and probably has changed a good bit. What makes you think their lives are far better off than those in the states?
Not necessarily disagreeing, but it absolutely was not the case 15 years ago. American life is on a downhill though, zero argument there.
Right now I look at my life in the late 20s in the states and even despite having a well paying tech job, I will have to sacrifice everything in my life in order to have a family or even own a house and those two are exclusive of each other. Although not in deep debt, I’ve definitely had to pay my fair share towards medical and student debt.
I’m watching critical infrastructure projects that could impact so many people take 30 years to build.
The amount of homeless we see on the streets is our own governmental failure and the increased crime associated with it. Seeing what I see in US streets really can wear an empathetic person down, it’s a cruel world here.
Our diet and price to eat healthy in the US is continuously worsening (yes this is a choice to an extent but also a cultural problem that grows over time)
And even though it’s absolutely recency bias, the deportation of Latinos does not strike confidence in me given my heritage.
I do think China has changed a lot in the last 15-30 years, and don’t get me wrong I don’t think it’s a perfect life, I understand there’s an infinite amount of competition for well paying jobs, and housing prices are extremely high (albeit not as high relative to ours). But when you show me how China has effectively succeeded at each of these topics compared to our own governmental failures that I experience on the daily, it makes me question my own life here and why people immediately criticize China without nuance.
I would love to discuss this with anyone that’s willing. If their government is as awful and fucked up as everyone says why does the average Chinese citizen generally have a better life than the average American in their respective societal totem pole (in cities specifically) ?
Many Chinese people want to go to western countries. Nowadays there might be less people wanting to emmigrate, but when I left, going to a western country was a common sentinment. Some want to study in a western University and bring back the knowledge home, others want to emmigrate permanently. My Aunts and Uncles in China are still on a waitlist trying to come. Now with trump, I’m not sure they’ll ever get a visa, or if the US would deteriorate and get worse than China with this fascism trajectory that the US is having. China is getting better as time goes on, but still not good enough that people are still trying to see better life abroad.
TLDR is that: China isn’t inherently worse, Western countries aren’t inherently better. It’s all a roll of dice. But in the US (and especially other western places like the EU) that “roll of dice” is often better than the “roll of dice” in China. China has way too many people and there is more competition for jobs. Not to mention, the GaoKao (高考) is like 10 times harder than the US SAT/ACT.
China has way too many people and there is more competition for jobs.
Is this only for well paying jobs like software engineering or is this also true for shittier service/factory style jobs?
